Forum Discussion
Natural therapies vs hormone therapy
Diagnosed in March this year. Lumpectomy. No spread into lymphatic system. Radiotherapy ended early July this year. I earlier had a discussion on this forum called "Arimidex - they're joking, right?" or something like that. Thanks again to everyone that gave input to that discussion. I stopped taking Arimidex 5 weeks in when the side effects became really debilitating (hence the earlier discussion). I don't think my doctor (who I see again in December) will be able to persuade me to give it another go, and the alternative drugs (tamoxifen, femora?) look to have pretty similar side effects, so I've started looking around (googling) at more natural ways to reduce the amount of oestrogen I'm producing. I figure at least I'll feel like I'm still doing something to improve my prospects. Of course, there's thousands of websites with lots of snakeoil sellers, and some which seem pretty ridgy didge too. I would be really grateful for any feedback at all in relation to this topic, including the risks involved (if known) and where the best source of information is. Obviously, I'll also be going to see a reputable naturopath (yes, there are such people). Thanks in advance and stay on top!
12 Replies
- Hello @Clairebear56
The following site has evidence based information regarding herbs botanicals and other products. Its an excellent resource with current information.
https://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/diagnosis-treatment/symptom-management/integrative-medicine/herbs
See the following links re tumeric and black cohosh, evidence and the possible interactions.
https://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/integrative-medicine/herbs/turmeric
https://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/integrative-medicine/herbs/black-cohosh
Great to hear that you will be having further discussion with your Doctor regarding your hormone therapy treatment. - Thanks @millie. I’ve started taking ground flaxseed and I’ve been taking Vitamin D for awhile to help absorption of calcium. I’ll contin to do those things irrespective of whether I decide to give HT another go.
- I've done a lot of reading about this. Primarily because taking Tamoxifen was only going to improve my 10 year out come by less than 2% at best. Yet, given I've currently got long term sleep and joint issues the chances of me lasting long on Tamoxifen was low. So, what I do know is my vitamin D levels have been low for years. Plus, I'm off to my GP in a few weeks to get bloods done on exactly how out of wack my estrogen levels are, as well as what is happening with Vitamin D, and whatever else. I want to get them better than 'normal'. I want to get them at optimal. I've also started adding flaxseed to my breakfast. Whilst I'm trim, my fitness isn't great. So, I'm going to work on improving that too. Good luck everyone with whatever journey you choose. xx
Vitamin D may increase survival for breast cancer patients
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/314017.php
Published Thursday 10 November 2016
High vitamin D levels have been associated with higher survival rates.
Some studies have suggested that the active metabolite of vitamin D - known as calcitriol - may be anticancerous. Administering calcitriol in mice has been shown to stop the proliferation and growth of cancer cells, reduce tumor blood vessel formation, and stimulate cell death.
Although there are not yet enough clinical trials in humans to prove this, some clinical and preclinical studies indicate that avoiding vitamin D deficiency and taking vitamin D supplements might be a cost-effective and safe way to prevent cancer and improve prognosis in patients already diagnosed with the illness.
"Our findings provide compelling observational evidence for inverse associations between vitamin D levels and risk of breast cancer progression and death," the authors conclude.
A feasibility study revealed that 84.4 percent of recently diagnosed breast cancer patients had already started taking vitamin D supplements.
Association between Vitamin D deficiency and Breast Cancer
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5510119/
2017 May-June
Findings of this study show that vitamin D deficiency is associated with risk of breast cancer.
Treating Cancer Naturally: 11 Strategies That Work
https://thetruthaboutcancer.com/treating-cancer-naturally/
2016
#5. Vitamin D
Because vitamin D is a fat-soluble nutrient, it is important to take the supplement with a fatty based meal for optimal absorption
One of the key functions of vitamin D is its ability to balance inflammatory pathways linked to cancer and promote the production of proteins such as GcMAF which regulate cancer cells.
GcMAF requires vitamin D in order to be created and fulfill its vital functions to maintaining the health of all cells and tissues. GcMAF has been shown to reverse breast cancer by preventing cancer cells from multiplying.
The Effect of Flaxseed in Breast Cancer: A Literature Review
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5808339/
7 February 2018
Some studies have shown that the intake of omega-3 fatty acids is related to the reduction of breast cancer risk. In animal studies, α-linolenic acids have been shown to be able to suppress growth, size, and proliferation of cancer cells and also to promote breast cancer cell death.
It also works as an antiestrogenic because its structure is very similar to the main form of estrogen, which allows its binding to the cell’s receptors, thus inhibiting the growth of cancer cells.
Observational studies indicate that flaxseed consumption (approximately 32 g/daily) can reduce breast cancer risk.
Ingestion of flaxseed or bread containing this ingredient is associated with a 20% reduction in the risk of breast cancer, in accordance with the protective effect observed in lignans from other vegetables.
Both the monthly and weekly/daily consumption of flaxseed (approximately 32.5 g) and flax bread (1 unit, roughly 2.5 − 5 g of flaxseed) were associated with a significant reduction from 18 to 24% in the risk of breast cancer in all women. It was also showed that flaxseed only reduced breast cancer risk in postmenopausal women, while flax bread reduced breast cancer risk in both postmenopausal and premenopausal women (52).
In another clinical trial, researchers selected about 45 premenopausal women with a high risk of developing breast cancer (either with suspicious breast biopsies or former breast cancer survivors) and they gave them 50 mg of SDG lignan daily, or the equivalent of two spoons of powdered flaxseed. The researchers conducted needle biopsies on the breast tissue, both before and after the study, which lasted a year. Results showed that, on average, women had less breast precancerous changes after a 1 year period of taking daily flaxseed lignans, than they had before they started being studied and also that 80% (36 out of 45) had a decrease in the Ki-67 levels––a biomarker that signals the increase of cell proliferation. According to this clinical trial, SDG lignan can reduce the risk of breast cancer.
Breast Cancer; Making the Case for Lignan Flaxseed Oil
https://bionatures.com/blogs/news/18674607-breast-cancer-making-the-case-for-lignan-flaxseed-oil
We suggest that every woman take at least one tablespoon of lignan-rich flaxseed oil daily to reduce her risk of breast cancer and minimize the potential for it to spread, should it occur.
Lignan-rich flaxseed oil is unique. Unlike regular flaxseed oil, the lignan-rich flax particulate from flaxseeds is retained in the oil, delivering powerful cancer fighting lignan precursors.
Once consumed, lignans found in flaxseed are converted to mammalian lignans. These mammalian lignans bind with estrogen receptors, where studies suggest they may induce the production of a special sex hormone binding compound. This compound, known as sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), regulates estrogen levels by removing excess estrogen from the body. Lignans are thought to be estrogen modulators, helping to balance estrogen activity within the body.
Thompson learned flaxseed lignans had been shown to be protective at the early promotional stage when cancers have not quite formed. She then wanted to determine whether supplementation with flaxseed, beginning 13 weeks after carcinogen administration, would reduce the size of already established mammary tumors present at the start of treatment, as well as appearance of new tumors. After seven weeks of treatment, established tumor volume was over 50 percent smaller in all treatment groups while there was no change in the placebo group. This study demonstrated that reduction in tumor size was due in part to the lignans derived from flaxseed.
In a case-control study from the Queen Elizabeth II Medical Center, Perth, Western Australia, women with newly-diagnosed, early breast cancer were interviewed by means of questionnaires, and a 72 hour urine collection and blood sample were taken. The urine samples were assayed for various plant constituents including lignans. It was determined that there is a substantial reduction in breast-cancer risk among women with a high intake of phyto-oestrogens, particularly the isoflavonic phyto-oestrogen equol and the lignan enterolactone.
To appreciate the dual protective effect of lignans and flaxseed oil, it is imperative that consumers recognize and purchase the right products. Look for flaxseed oil products that are labeled as high-lignan. Flaxseed oil should be gently expeller pressed without filtration or refinement.Case-control study of phyto-oestrogens and breast cancer.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9329514
October 1997
There is a substantial reduction in breast-cancer risk among women with a high intake (as measured by excretion) of phyto-oestrogens-particularly the isoflavonic phyto-oestrogen equol and the lignan enterolactone. These findings could be important in the prevention of breast cancer.
- No worries @Clairebear56,
I have just copied and paste below. That way if anyone else wants to read they can.Hi there,
My name is LJ, I am one of the Naturopaths here at Happy Healthy You. Thanks for your message.
Taking hH with tamoxifen is fine, do start on a low dose for instance 1/2 tsp or 2 capsules to begin and monitor yourself always. As a rule take your medications 2-4 hours away from your HH.
To give you a little more information as i am sure you doctor would also have questions -
HH contains standarised herbs, which will help to regulate the health of the glandular system (endocrine system). Yes, HH contains plant based oestrogen (phytoestrogens) however there is much confusion about what these do. Phytoestrogens are the beneficial oestrogen which work to block the negative environmental or synthetic oestrogen (xenoestrogens) and thereby down regulate there concentration in the body. The way that the uptake of phytoestrogens works is via hormonal regulation to the brain, this occurs due to the other synergistic herbs in the formulation (Vitex, Black Cohosh) which work on the master control mechanisms in the brain to increase or decrease the amount of oestrogen contained in the body. An example of this is in the case of perimenopause when the body is naturally starting to decrease its production of oestrogen such as in the ovaries. If you take a phytoestrogen herb the body will be able to initiate a better production of healthy oestrogen in the ovaries to decrease low oestrogen symptoms such as hot flushes. On the opposite spectrum of this is a situation of oestrogen excess such as endometriosis. If a woman with this tissue overgrowth conditions takes a phytoestrogen herb it works to down regulate the amount of oestrogen the body produces and improve the removal of the oestrogen from the body. So I hope that this helps to explain to you that phytoestrogens work to regulate hormones to find a balance. Yes HH contains phytoestrogens however this doesn’t necessarily mean it will increase oestrogen, unless via feedback mechanism (hormonal communication) the body requires it.
You may also benefit from reading these two articles -
https://happyhealthyyou.com.au/blogs/articles/turmeric-and-breast-cancer
https://happyhealthyyou.com.au/blogs/articles/natural-ways-prevent-breast-cancer
I trust this answered your question. Please don't hesitate to reach out if you have any other queries.
If your doctor has questions about black cohosh which is in the products you can always share these articles too - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18066117/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21231853/
- I make no claim to being a medical specialist, but I do consider myself to be reasonably intelligent and open minded. The question I ask myself when it comes to all these claims regarding so-called "super foods" and this, that or the other supplement, vitamin, pill, crystals, acupuncture, channels of energy and their realignment and so on is this... If these various treatments are of such benefit..."this will boost cell growth to your healthy cells"..."this will improve your energy flow"..."this will make this that or the other super this, that, or the next thing"...and all these claims are true...who's to say that the cancer cells (any that may remain or have already formed mets), won't also benefit and become super strong, super energised and super everything else? You can't have it both ways, that your body will receive these goodies, and then dish them out thus..."One for you"...to the good cells, and "None for you" to the bad ones...? My thoughts only, and all the best to those who disagree.
- That was really interesting reading Kezmusc and I’m grateful to you for taking the time. Yes please to sending me the email. Do I provide my email address to you for you to do that? I’m still a newbie on this forum. And really, it’s the fact that, as you say, the bloody thing can still come back whether you do the HT or not, that makes the decision whether to persevere in the face of bloody awful side effects more difficult. If taking it would guarantee no recurrence, I’d put up with just about anything. Thanks again for sharing your experiences with me.
- It was a pretty interesting article I thought @Zoffiel.
@Clairebear56,
It's a rock and a hard place allright. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Either the way the bloody thing can come back so to feel like crap for a maybe is really hard to get your head around I understand perfectly.
I've been playing handball with Tamoxifen for 14mths now, I take it until I feel too shitty to cope then I go off it for a couple of weeks and so on and so on. I've just come off another two week break and unfortunately this time the effects didn't wear off as fast as normal so I've only had three "normal" days instead of my usual really good 10 days or so. I said I wouldn't do round 5 but to be perfectly honest I really am too scared to stay off completely and mostly it's at a more manageable level now (it has been a hard slog I must say) so I will continue the yo yo game. Here's hoping if I keep it guessing the little sucker can't mutate and get used to the tablets huh? LOL, that's my theory anyhoo.
I'm not a super sceptic with "natural products, vitamins etc" I think they have their place and I'd pretty much try anything if I thought it would replace of these tablets to the same effect, however, no one has been able to convince me. There are no studies done into tthese types of products because they are classed as food stuffs and not medicine so nobody really bothers.
I went to an accupuncturist several times to try and alleviate the back and hip pain from the HT, which was very relaxing, and expensive, and did nothing. She lost me when she starting saying she had cured her mothers breast cancer and I should have tried accupuncture first.
Through all this when I had the absolute shits (which is pretty much every second day) with the HT I enquired with a company called "Happy Hormones" I can send you a copy of their email response if you want to dig a bit deeper. Although my question was whether or not I could take it with Tamoxifen to help with some of the side effects, not specifically will it lower oestrogen. To tell you the truth it was the most in depth response that I had had from one of these companies and told me to take her response to my oncologist. No matter how much I want to flick these things I still wasn't convinced and the hard core drugs have won out for the time being.
Let me know if you want me to send you that email.
All the best.
xoxoxo - Thanks to both of you. I'll print out your post Zoffiel and take it with me when I go back to the surgeon in December. He said he wasn't too worried if I didn't start on the AIs until then anyway.
This is a link to a fairly reputable site (thanks @kezmusc for your earlier post that lead me down this rabbit hole) If you are going to go down the alternative path, please get some sound background on how your cancer works. It will help you sort the sheep from the charlatans when you are discussing what you might do next.
