Forum Discussion
positive3negati
9 years agoMember
Let's have another conversation about vaginas
Following on from my last post, today was my first appointment with the gynaecologist to discuss vaginal atrophy. By a happy coincidence, it turns out that Dr Metawa is one of the two doctors that introduced the Mona Lisa touch therapy to Australia. He tells me that when he first started offering it, he contacted many of the cancer groups. It is his view that this treatment should be offered a a routine part of cancer treatment where menopausal symptoms are often induced. He shakes his head and tells me that they were skeptical and didn’t believe the therapy would work.
Since then it has become more broadly available and the cost has come down, but it is still too expensive for many people. I tell him my story, about my GP telling me I had vaginal atrophy and not bothering to let me know about laser therapy. “It’s cultural,” he replies in his clearly not-Australian-born accent. “In Australia there is a great reluctance to talk about vaginal health.”
Why is this? The doctor explains that vaginal atrophy results in the slow collapse of the vagina, often leaving women with symptoms of urinary incontinence, higher risk of urinary tract infections, higher incidence of prolapse (where inside bits become outside bits), and in some cases, irritation or pain so sever that patients have trouble walking. But we’re Australian, so let’s not talk about vaginas.
Then, of course, there’s intercourse, which we also don’t like talking about unless we’re using it as an analogy for something being broken. We have not trouble at all saying something is ‘fucked’ but we cringe at any conversation about actual intercourse and whether or not it’s still comfortable. I know, I’m generalising here and those of us from backgrounds like nursing or policing sex crimes are much less squeamish. Even so, I cannot recall ever having a single conversation with a girlfriend about our vaginas.
Dr Metawa thinks that discomfort during intercourse is the least significant issue when it comes to vaginal atrophy. He’s not diminishing the importance of my sex life. He says this in a way that means “There are so many other terrible things that come with vaginal atrophy that this is way down the list.”
The doctor ushers me into his examination suite and gives me some privacy while I take off everything below the waist. He returns after knocking, and asks me to put my legs up into the stirrups. He tells me that I’ll be able to follow the examination on the television screen attached to the chair, if I wish. Sure. Why not? Let’s have a good look at vaginal atrophy.
He turns on the camera and tells me that, of course, the image of my vagina is magnified. “Oh that’s good news,” I respond, “Or I’m in real trouble!” He chuckles like he’s never heard this one before and I decide I like him. Next up, vivid colour images of my vagina. (I can’t help noticing I’ve got a grey hair) and the good doctor confirms that I have advanced vaginal atrophy. He explains that the vaginal birth of my daughter, twenty four years ago, stretched the skin and that’s why it has taken so long after chemotherapy for the atrophy to become apparent. If I’d had a caesarean birth, or never had children, it would have turned up sooner.
Dr Metawa advised me that I am a good candidate for the Mona Lisa Touch Therapy. He’s pleased that I’m not on any anti-oestrogen medication as this can make atrophy much worse, and treatment not as straight forward. He still treats women on anti-oestrogen medication so if you are in that category it is still worth seeing someone about this treatment.
I’m booked in for my first session on Friday. I’ve been warned that this one can be uncomfortable, and even painful, because the vagina is dry and the walls are thin. The good news is it will be all uphill from here, with little or no discomfort for my second and third treatments over the next couple of months. Once the three treatment are completed, the doctor will assess the condition of my vagina to determine if tone has been restored. I may need one more treatment. I am told I can expect a full recovery from the atrophy. I will not need to use any lubricant, inside or outside my vagina and I can also expect the associated incontinence issues to resolve.
Once we achieve OV (my abbreviation for ‘optimal vagina) I’ll have a followup at three months and then another at six months. After that, I’m told it’s best to just monitor vaginal tone and to book in for a top up as needed. “Better to have one treatment sooner than several later.” This seems like good advice. Some people only need one top up a year and others need two or three. Vaginas are all different.
There’s no doubt that this is a significant investment. I think it’s entirely worth it, particularly as I now know that without it I can expect “full collapse” of my vagina. I’ll post again after my first session on Friday.
Thanks to everyone that left feedback on this. It's clearly an issue of significance for a lot of women. It's my thinking that if breast reconstruction is covered by Medicare then treating vaginal atrophy should be too. Both of these things are important options for women recovering from breast cancer.
Meg X
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30 Replies
- Relevant research paper on DHEA. Conclusion: definitely worth discussing with your doctor.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26731686Sign in to react to this post
- ChrisMemberHi, it is good to hear information about this treatment again. About 12 months ago I also had the Mona Lisa treatment. I was extremely lucky to find a Gyno doing a clinical trial, so it cost me nothing. For me the jury is still out as far as this procedure goes. I think it has made a bit of a difference, and my husband says he can notice it. For me though, intercourse still feels scratchy and uncomfortable. My biggest disappointment is that I still have no libido, and that makes it hard to get aroused or interested. I was never told the procedure would help my libido, but I had secretly hoped that without dryness and pain, I would feel differently about sex, and my libido would improve. I am now on tamoxifen after 6 years on Femara, so everything is well and truely shrivelled up. I feel sad for my husband who is not ready to live without sex, but in all honesty, I could happily live without sex nowadays. I would love some advice on finding my desire again. I am still plagued by hotflushes (10 YEARS NOW) which often arise when I am touched. A big turn off and my poor husband is so patient and tolerant and I would like to be able to respond in ways other than throwing off the bed clothes and lying like a star fish while I cool down.
Good luck everyone.Sign in to react to this post - DaisyMarigoldMemberHi - Suziq good to hear from you. Mum2jj asked re the BCNA policy action that was supposed to have been taken a while back, via our Lost Libido Ladies group. I think they were to lobby to get Mona Lisa Touch subsidised for women with breast cancer, and I think also lobbying about DHEA pessaries? YES is available on the NHS in the UK, so that would be another nice addition here. i have no idea where, if anywhere, they got to with this.
For what it's worth: I tried MLT with a gyno in training on the equipment, and it hurt so much I stopped the procedure. It may have simply been operator inexperience,but I didn't want to repeat it. So for anyone who goes ahead with it, do check that your gyno has done a lot of it, otherwise look elsewhere. The DHEA pessaries worked really well for me, as does the Yes Vaginal Moisturiser (the one specifically designed for vaginal atrophy, not the other Yes moisturisers/lubricants). I've found Astroglide by far the best lubricant for sex - I think it was recommended by another member.
For those ladies who aren't members of the Lost Libido Ladies group, do join, because there's a heap of historical info from a few of us on those pages, including more details on all the above. xxSign in to react to this post - Suzieq thank you SO much for those links! Very helpful, particularly the reviews and comments from other women. I'm feeling optimistic.Sign in to react to this post
- Iserbrown I have already received a medicare rebate on my initial consult and I have been told that I will be entitled to a medicare rebate for each of my three sessions.Sign in to react to this post
- suzieqMemberAny co2 procedure is expensive. Mona Lisa Touch is no different. It is the same principle as any co2 laser eg: facial resurfacing which, when carried out by a Dermatologist costs around $5000 so in perspective is not expensive. I believe Medicare should rebate some of the cost as it is a consequence of cancer treatment (Aramatose Inhibitors) and if rebate available more women would complete their cancer treatments as vaginal atrophy is one of the worst side effects women find hardest to live with.
A Gynecologist needs to perform MLT. There are more experienced in the procedure than others so ask questions and do your homework if you want to go ahead with it. I have posted extensively on my experience with Mona Lisa Touch and that information would be available somewhere on this site. Apart from that there is extensive information of personal experiences of others who have undergone the MLT refer this site: https://www.realself.com/monalisa-touch. Its a blog site where women undergoing cosmetic procedures tells their story. Last time I looked at it there were over 60 women who blogged about the procedure. It had about a 97% sucess rate but what you need to look for is women who blogged after initial success - in other words how long did it last?
The MLT is painless and takes about 5 mins. It worked great for me but did not last long and the cost of having to repeat the procedure annually, albeit only one , not three, was not viable financially. I still had to use lubricants for sex but I could at least have sex. Unfortunately, it did not last long because the reasons vaginal atrophy existed in the first place was still there ie lack of estrogen even after I stopped Aramatose Inhibitors so of course needs to be repeated. There isn't a moisturiser or lubricant in existence that can replace the role of hormones but they certainly help and I suggest, until you decide what path you are going to take that you use daily moisturiser but use ORGANIC like Yes products see site: https://www.yesyesyes.org/ These are best products on the market and I and others on this site buy direct on this site. Products available on the chemist shelves here are not organic and you can only use them every 3 days or so - just not good enough. I also suggest you use vaginal dilators - quick and simple - takes a few minutes a day. The use of daily moisturiser and dilators will help, but generally not solve, atrophy.
I am now 5 years post breast cancer and on low dose vaginal estrogen pessaries and use compounded progesterone cream. This is NOT a suggestion for anyone else. Instead I would like to point out, the last time I saw my doctor (couple weeks ago) she said "great news on latest research results on DHEA for vaginal atrophy". As I was happy with what I was doing I didn't have that conversation with her but might revisit it when I go back and ask what she was talking about. DHEA is widely used in the States and elsewhere for women with breast cancer who suffer vaginal atrophy. It is available on script and comes in pessaries and acts as estrogen does. While DHEA can turn into estrogen in the body persistent evidence suggests it does NOT when used vaginally but acts the same bringing tissues back to normal. It is not available in the pessary form in Australia (we don't have enough agitators here and our market not large enough for a drug company to go through the hoops here). You would have to get prescription from your doctor and take to your local COMPOUNDING chemist. You need to do your own research on this, talk to your own doctor (if they know about it) but evidence is it is safe and it works. Good luck ladiesSign in to react to this post - iserbrownMemberHi! I've been searching around and it would appear that it is not covered by Medicare. Some sites offer a discount if it is cancer related. This is what I found. Assuming the site information is up to date!
"...provides a 10% discount to patients whose symptoms are secondary to a preventative cancer treatment (such as bilateral-oophorectomy) or due to any cancer-related surgery, therapy or medications.
Medicare or private health insurance does not currently cover the MonaLisa Touch treatment..."
Sign in to react to this post - DeanneMemberThanks @mum2jj. The price I paid was actually cheaper than what some of the other gynaecologists in Brisbane and other areas charge. $750 per treatment or $2000 upfront for 3 treatments is what some are charging. Maybe as this treatment becomes more widely available the natural forces of supply and demand will result in more competitive pricing. But it seems wrong that this is the case for something medical.
I understand that doctors need to try and cover their initial outlay of equipment and training etc and so many will need to charge a higher fee to try and recover this, particularly at first. However I do not understand how some of us are getting a Medicare rebate when I was told that there is none, that there is no item number for Mona Lisa Touch treatment? I really hope that Medicare are now giving some rebate when I return next month for my check up.Sign in to react to this post - mum2jjMemberI just had a thought. I seem to remember discusssion as to the expense of the equipment and training needed for the drs performing it is factored into the price Drs charge for it. I guess they need to cover their initial outlay. It is soooo wrong that something with potential for such good results is out of most of our reaches.
I seem to remember BCNA policy team looking into this but am not sure if it's this or the YES products. When I have time I will try and scroll through the LLL posts. @DaisyMarigold or @suzieq, can either of you remember. Paula xxSign in to react to this post - DeanneMemberHi Meg
It is puzzling that you and Alpal are saying that there is a partial Medicare rebate. There is definitely no rebate for the Mona Lisa treatment or no cover privately where I have had treatment. My last treatment was only 8 weeks ago. The only rebate I have received is a normal consultation rebate with the gynaecologist for the initial consultation.
I will ask about this when I go back for my 3 month check next month. It would be good if I can get something back for future maintenance treatments. Thanks for sharing all this info. I hope that you experience success from your treatments.Sign in to react to this post